इस सवाल पर कि श्री मोदी के सत्ता में आने के बाद से भारत की अर्थव्यवस्था में सुधार हुआ है, एक स्वतंत्र आर्थिक आकलन के अनुसार, सरकार की मौजूदा आर्थिक नीतियों पर आपका क्या कहना है, श्री राहुल गांधी ने कहा- मेरा मतलब है, हम जमीन पर जो देखते हैं वह है बड़े पैमाने पर बेरोजगारी और कीमतों में नाटकीय वृद्धि और यह एक कारण है कि हमने कर्नाटक चुनाव जीता। भारत में एक भावना थी कि ऐसे लोगों का एक समूह है जिनके पास बड़ी मात्रा में धन है और फिर बड़ी संख्या में भारतीय लोग हैं जो गरीब हैं और संघर्ष कर रहे हैं, भारी आय असमानता और बेरोजगारी, मुझे लगता है, यह 40 साल है’ उच्चतम बेरोजगारी, इसलिए कहना- अर्थव्यवस्था अच्छा कर रही है, मैं इससे बिल्कुल सहमत नहीं हूं।
इस सवाल पर कि विशेष नीतियां चिंता का कारण हैं या जिन्हें बदला जाना है, श्री गांधी ने कहा- मुझे लगता है कि हम इसे कैसे देखते हैं और भाजपा इसे कैसे देखती है, इसके बीच केंद्रीय अंतर है: हम सत्ता के विकेंद्रीकरण में विश्वास करते हैं, हम समर्थन में विश्वास करते हैं छोटे और मध्यम उद्योग, और हम मानते हैं कि वे भारत में विकास के इंजन हैं; और वे कुछ सीमित लोगों में शक्ति और धन को केंद्रित करते हैं। तो, मैं कहूंगा, मोटे तौर पर, यह आर्थिक परिप्रेक्ष्य में अंतर है।
एक अन्य प्रश्न पर कि यदि आपकी पार्टी सत्ता में लौटती है, तो भारत में अल्पसंख्यकों के अधिकारों को सुनिश्चित करने के लिए क्या बदलाव लागू होंगे, श्री राहुल गांधी ने कहा- भारत में पहले से ही एक बहुत मजबूत व्यवस्था है, वह व्यवस्था कमजोर हो गई है, लेकिन ऐसा नहीं है। सिस्टम मौजूद नहीं है। यदि लोकतांत्रिक बातचीत को बढ़ावा दिया जाता है, तो ये मुद्दे खुद ही सुलझ जाएंगे।
एक अन्य प्रश्न पर कि क्या कानून का राज कायम है, श्री गांधी ने कहा- नहीं, ऐसा नहीं है! आपके पास संस्थानों का एक स्वतंत्र समूह होना चाहिए जो दबाव और नियंत्रित न हो और भारत में यह आदर्श रहा है। यह एक विचलन है जो भारत में हो रहा है। इसलिए हमारे नजरिए से भारत में लोकतंत्र की नींव बहुत मजबूत है और सुरक्षाएं मौजूद हैं, लेकिन उन्हें छेड़ा जा रहा है।
एक अन्य प्रश्न पर कि यदि कांग्रेस सत्ता में आती है तो किन संस्थाओं को जल्दी से बहाल किया जा सकता है, इस पर श्री गांधी ने कहा- जल्दी, मुझे नहीं पता, लेकिन कांग्रेस पार्टी ही वह संस्था है जिसने सबसे पहले उनकी परिकल्पना की थी। इसलिए, हम उन्हें अपनी संस्थाओं के रूप में नहीं देखते हैं, हम उन्हें राज्य की संस्थाओं के रूप में देखते हैं और इसलिए हमने सुनिश्चित किया कि इन संस्थानों में स्वतंत्रता और तटस्थता हो, और यदि आप ऐसा करने का प्रयास कर रहे हैं तो यह करना मुश्किल नहीं है।
भारत में प्रेस की स्वतंत्रता के एक अन्य प्रश्न पर श्री गांधी ने कहा- नहीं। मुझे लगता है कि प्रेस की स्वतंत्रता कमजोर हो रही है, यह बात छिपी नहीं है। हर कोई इसे जानता है। यह भारत में स्पष्ट है। बाकी दुनिया इसे देख सकती है, और मुझे लगता है कि लोकतंत्र के लिए प्रेस की स्वतंत्रता बहुत-बहुत महत्वपूर्ण है।
किसी को आलोचना के लिए खुला होना चाहिए और किसी को आलोचना को सुनना चाहिए और वह फीडबैक लूप है जो लोकतंत्र का निर्माण करता है और निश्चित रूप से प्रेस की स्वतंत्रता कमजोर होती है और यह सिर्फ प्रेस की स्वतंत्रता नहीं है, यह कई दिशाओं में है। कई दिशाओं में, उस संस्थागत ढाँचे पर जकड़न है जिसने भारत को बात करने की अनुमति दी, जिसने भारतीय लोगों को बातचीत करने की अनुमति दी।
मैं भारत को अपने लोगों के बीच, विभिन्न भाषाओं, विभिन्न संस्कृतियों, विभिन्न इतिहासों के बीच बातचीत के रूप में देखता हूं और महात्मा गांधी ने हमारे सामने जो वास्तुकला स्थापित की थी, वह उस बातचीत को निष्पक्ष और स्वतंत्र रूप से करने की अनुमति देने के लिए थी और वह संरचना, जो बीच बातचीत की अनुमति देती है भारत के लोग दबाव में आ रहे हैं।
यह सवाल आपको श्रीमान मोदी से पूछना चाहिए। अधिक उपयुक्त, मुझे नहीं पता, आप इसे कैसे प्राप्त करेंगे? मुझे नहीं पता, वह कैसे मिलेगा। मुझे लगता है, यह उस पर निर्देशित बेहतर सवाल होगा।
एक अन्य प्रश्न पर कि पीढ़ियों से भारत में रह रहे भारतीय मुसलमानों को निकालने के लिए अमेरिकी नागरिक कानून के संबंध में आपकी क्या चिंताएं हैं, श्री राहुल गांधी ने कहा- मुझे लगता है कि सभी भारतीय लोगों को अभिव्यक्ति का अधिकार है। सभी भारतीय लोगों को धार्मिक स्वतंत्रता का अधिकार है, सभी भारतीय समुदायों को खुद को अभिव्यक्त करने के लिए स्वतंत्र महसूस करना चाहिए। इसलिए, मैं किसी समुदाय, किसी जाति के बीच अंतर नहीं करता। मुझे लगता है कि भारत, जैसा कि मैंने उल्लेख किया है, अब यह एक वार्तालाप है और यह वार्तालाप जितना अधिक मुक्त और खुला होगा, भारत उतना ही अधिक शक्तिशाली होगा।
एक सवाल पर कि आपने कहा है कि मोदी की बीजेपी नफरत और हिंसा की राजनीति करती है, क्या आप बता सकते हैं कि इससे आपका क्या मतलब है? श्री गांधी ने कहा- मेरा मतलब है, वाक्य में समझाया, ठीक है। वे समाज में एक निश्चित मात्रा में घृणा उत्पन्न करते हैं, वे समाज का ध्रुवीकरण करते हैं और वे समावेशी नहीं हैं, वे हर किसी को गले नहीं लगाते हैं और वे समाज को विभाजित करते हैं, और यह मेरे विचार से भारत के लिए हानिकारक है। क्योंकि भारत में हमेशा खुलेपन की बातचीत की परंपरा रही है। हमारे सभी महान नेता, आध्यात्मिक, राजनीतिक, महात्मा गांधी, बुद्ध, इन सभी ने सद्भाव को बढ़ावा दिया, शांति को बढ़ावा दिया, बातचीत को बढ़ावा दिया। इसलिए, यह हमारी संस्कृति में है, लोगों को एक साथ लाना और ये संवाद करना हमारे इतिहास में है।
I think, it’s a difference in ideology between us and the BJP. We feel, India should be allowed to express itself, and we feel that political leaders should be comfortable being questioned and should learn from that questioning. It’s just a difference in view point.
On another question that such a divisive figure Modi maintains at very high levels, in fact, worldwide high levels of popularity, why do you think that’s the case? Why so many Indian support the Modi government, Shri Gandhi said- There is a definite capture of the institutions of the country, there is a definite capture of the press in the country. I am not convinced about that, I don’t believe everything I hear. I walked across India, walked from Kanyakumari to Kashmir and talked directly to millions of Indian people, and they didn’t seem very happy to me, and they were very clear that there was serious issues with regard to unemployment, there was massive price rice, so there was an angst in the people and you know, look at the Karnataka election and wait and watch the next three or four state elections, that I think is a better indicator of what’s going to happen.
On another question that you are here in Washington, Washington has been sort of, warming up to the Modi government, do you feel this is a mistake, Shri Gandhi said- who am I to advise, Washington and what they want to do? It’s their choice, they have to decide about these things. It’s pretty clear from our perspective, where we have to go. There are certain values that we protect, and we are serious about protecting those values. As I said, the conversation between the people of India, the idea that all Indians should have equal space, equal expression. These are things for us which are non-negotiable and we fight for them, and we pay the price.
On another question about the border dispute between India and China, Shri Gandhi said- The fact of the matter is China is occupying our territory. It’s an accepted fact. I think 1,500 square kilometers of land, the size of Delhi, is occupied by them, and I think it is absolutely unacceptable. Prime Minister seems to believe otherwise, I don’t know, maybe he knows something we don’t know.
On a question that India’s position in Kashmir, as a tourist destination, sort of populations are persecuted, do you see this is the path of prosperity for that region, Shri Gandhi said- No, I think everybody in India has a democratic right. Every single person in India should be allowed to be part of the conversation. I think, there are things that can be improved in Jammu and Kashmir with regard to that conversation, and we are committed to improving the democratic conversation in Jammu and Kashmir.
On another question that you talked about secularism in democracy, while opposing the Hindu party BJP, however Congress has been in alliance with the Muslim Party, Muslim League (IUML) in Kerala, Shri Gandhi said- Muslim League (IUML) is a completely secular party, there is nothing non-secular about the Muslim League. I think the person hasn’t studied the Muslim League.
On another question that how united is the opposition in India and why isn’t Congress supporting Kejriwal on ordinance issue, Shri Rahul Gandhi said- No, that’s an internal discussion we are having. The opposition is pretty well united and I think, it’s getting more and more united. We are having conversations with all the opposition, and I think, quite a lot of good work is happening there.
It’s a complicated discussion because there are spaces where we are competing also with the opposition. So, it’s little bit of give and take that is required, but I am confident that will happen.
On another question that so given the electoral strength of the BJP, would Congress now be willing to consider being part of coalition government, Shri Gandhi said- Well, these are questions that need to be asked to the Congress President because he is the decision maker. I think the Congress Party will do very well in the next election. I think it will surprise people because I think there is a hidden undercurrent building, and I think will surprise people and I am not entirely convinced about this idea that Mr. Narendra Modi is going to win the 2024 election. I think it’s not as simple as people make out. If you just do the math, a united opposition will defeat the BJP on its own without any electoral math.
On another question that what role is there for the international community to prevent to a slide of authoritarianism in India…, Shri Gandhi said- See, it’s our job, it’s our business and it’s our work to fight the battle for democracy in India and it’s something that we understand, we accept, and we do, but the thing to remember is that Indian democracy is a global public good because India is large enough. A collapse in democracy in India will have an impact on the world. So, that’s what for you to think about, how much you value Indian democracy, but for us it’s an internal matter and it’s a fight that we are committed to and we are going to win.
On another question about the Prime Minister Modi’s official state visit to USA later this month, Shri Rahul Gandhi said- Let’s see what happens in the visit. I think, let the Prime Minister come here, and let the visit take place, and then let’s see. I don’t want to prejudge this, but, I do think, the relationship between India and the United States is very-very important. I think, it’s also important that we broadbase the relationship. It’s important to have a defence relationship, but I think we need to also consider other areas, and we need to have a vision for other spaces other than defence.
On another question that do you see India as a centre between Russia, China and USA interests? Do you see it’s benefiting from the interplay at these countries. Do you see, it is taking almost a leadership role in the Indo- Pacific, in terms of economic issue, Shri Gandhi said- Look, India has to do what’s in its self-interest, and that’s what guides us but, as a people, we are committed to a democratic vision.
So, I, myself am not entirely convinced about the autocratic vision that is being promoted, and I think it’s very important that democracy is protected on the planet. So, India has a role there. India, of course, has its view on things and I think that view should be put on the table, but I don’t think one should think about these things as owed to you, the centre of things, I think, that would be arrogant.
We understand the strengths that we bring to the table. Democratic values, data, these are some of the things that technology, a highly educated, technically educated population, these are our strengths and I think, we have to chart our course based on these trends.
On another question that India started as a secular state, but it’s currently leaning toward a Hindu state, is that a threat to democracy? Is India losing its original ideology from its perspective, Shri Gandhi said- I think,there is a fight on in India. There are two visions of India. There is the vision that the BJP has. It’s a centralizing vision, it’s a polarizing vision, and then there is another vision equally strong. In fact, if you ask me, much stronger, but not expressing itself that effectively right now, which is a decentralized view, an embracing vision, a sensitive compassionate vision and I am absolutely convinced that this is transitional phase, and the true nature of India, the true democratic nature of India, and compassionate nature of India will triumph. I have no doubt in mind, and by the way, we have gone through this phase before, so it’s not that is a new thing. The Congress Party faced the exact same thing in the ‘thirties and we decimated it and we will do the same again.
People are impatient… people are very impatient. BJP has been in power for 10 years then, okay we were in power for 10 years before that, why did nobody say in UPA-2 when we had been in power for 8 years… why did nobody say- Oh my God, the BJP is going to evaporate. After all, the same… you know, we were in power for 10 years. So, there is a tendency for the media to exaggerate these things. There are reasons for it also but we are committed to the democratisation of India and we are committed especially to the emancipation of the poor people of India, the lower castes, the backward castes… these communities.
On another question about freedom of the press, Shri Gandhi said- I mean, you don’t really need to do much. You need to just stop interfering and stop pressuring. If you look at the UPA period, we didn’t interfere…we didn’t pressurise and it worked perfectly fine. So, if the leadership of the country decides that a free press is valuable, then it will fall into place.
On another question about the situation in Bangladesh, Shri Rahul Gandhi said- Bangladesh is a friend of India but it’s for Bangladesh to decide these things, it’s not my place to tell Bangladesh how they should live their life.
On another question economic growth as well as divisiveness during the BJP regime, Shri Gandhi said- Well! I mean you know the $ 3.5 trillion… India has a particular growth rate, so that is just a natural consequence of that growth rate. The question is how is the wealth of India distributed? Is India creating jobs? Are Indian people feeling that they can express themselves? Are they happy? Is there general tranquillity in the country? The Congress party has a record for doing this. We have done it for many, many years. I think a good model is to let the people of India get to work… let them do what they are best at doing and not to pressurise them and threaten them and do that. There is a historical record for this. After all, India did extremely well in the early 2000s.
There is a cost, you see… there is also something that people don’t realise… it’s that there is massive economic cost to this disharmony, to this non-conversation that filters out. So, saying that Indian economy is doing well… that doesn’t take in the full picture. What are the other costs that you are creating… those are not being factored in. We had better economic growth than the BJP, created more jobs than the BJP and had complete harmony in the country.
On another question that what are the biggest drivers of the economy in the short term, in the coming years, Shri Gandhi said- I think, what the BJP’s policies have done, particularly demonetisation and what we considered to be a flawed GST… they have weakened the small and medium businesses in India and we believe that the small and medium businesses are actually the backbone of economic activity in India. If you want to create jobs, if you want to have a 21st century economy, you have to empower these people and turn them from being small and medium business to large business.
So, in our mind, it’s taking these businesses and scaling them up and having hundreds, if not thousands, of these businesses become large business. So, that’s where we fundamentally differ with the BJP. They believe that you don’t need these small and medium businesses… that you can build the Indian economy with three or four huge massive businesses. Unfortunately, having three or four massive businesses doesn’t translate into jobs… it can’t. So, that’s really the difference between the two visions and you can see it.
So, the growth during the UPA period was much better than the growth now and there is massive levels of unemployment in India now and it’s a real problem because our people need to be put into productive activity. It’s a huge waste of the most valuable resource on the planet.
On another question whether India needs foreign investors for building small and medium business, Shri Gandhi said- I think, the United States… I think that’s when I was talking about broad-basing the relationship, I was talking about that… that the United States and India have synergies… that if they come together, they can be very powerful. What we are facing is a particular vision of the world… Chinese vision of the world that offers productivity, prosperity but under a non-democratic framework. That’s not acceptable to us because we simply cannot thrive under a non-democratic structure.
So, we have to think about production and prosperity in a democratic framework and I think that’s where the bridge between India and the United States can play a very important role for us, for you and I think… also for the planet to show the rest of the world that production, manufacturing in a democratic environment is possible and can actually be competitive with the Chinese model.
On another question about environmental concerns, Shri Gandhi said- As I said, you can’t ignore costs and pretend they don’t exist. And when you are thinking about these things, you don’t want to think about them in one-year, two-year, five-year time frame. As a country, you would like to think about them in 20-30-year time frame and if you are looking at that span, then the environment is fundamental. You can’t get away from it. Saying that, the world is in a transition, so we are moving from internal combustion engines to electric motors. There is an energy transition taking place. So, we have to adapt ourselves to benefit from those transitions and I think India is very well placed to do that.
On another question about Indian economy needing more exports or new technologies, Shri Gandhi said- It’s both. If India starts manufacturing, starts producing… it will start to export as well. I think, there is an opportunity for India to successfully compete with the Chinese on manufacturing. We might not end up doing it the way that they do it. We might not end up having huge factories, we might end up having smaller factories with high technology embedded in them. So, the system will probably look different but the end result would be similar… that we would compete with China, you would see ‘Made in China’ and you would see ‘Made in India’.
On another question that can you do without more Chinese investment, Shri Gandhi said- I think, yeah, that’s where the India-US relationship should be looking. That to me is what the conversation should be about… how do we build this alternative production system, alternative manufacturing system and I think there are a lot of interesting things there because of our size, because of data, because of our technological capabilities and your technological capabilities. So, I think the strengthening of the bridge between the United States and India and widening it… taking it from a two-lane highway to 10-15 & 20-lane highway is how I think about it.
On another question about India-US partnership, Shri Rahul Gandhi said- There are always stumbling blocks… there are already, you know, relationships like that between the United States and India. They will move very fast, then they will slow down, then they will move very fast. But as long as the progression is in the right direction and you are focusing on the right things, I think you will end up resolving the problem.
On another question about the way to tackle BJP’s hard propaganda, Shri Gandhi said- Well! we have been struggling with this for some time and we came across this very simple idea, which was to walk from Kanyakumari to Kashmir and it was shocking at how effective that idea was. I was just frankly blown away because when we went directly to the people, no amount of force worked. The BJP was trying everything they could to not allow the Yatra to be successful, it didn’t work. So, it was very interesting.
I think all this propaganda doesn’t work if you go close to the people. If you are far from the people, it’s very easy. But once you start going close to the people and you start having conversations, you start walking on the streets, you start physically meeting people, it doesn’t work. It’s quite a revelation to me and I think it has made me understand what Mahatma Gandhi was doing with the Champaran movement or the Dandi March. I think, as I was saying in Stanford yesterday, in the West and in India, there is a distance between the people and the political class and I think… that’s where the propaganda comes into play. If you bridge that gap, it’s very difficult.
On another question that can you get your message out with the media, Shri Gandhi said- We got the message out with the Yatra in an explosive way… I mean fantastic.
On another question that were people hearing your message, Shri Gandhi said- Loud and clear. It’s obvious…It’s obvious to every single person in India that the message of the Yatra is – India needs to stand united, India needs to work together. It resonated, and resonated with BJP people. Some days back, one of the spokespersons of the BJP bumped into me and she said that this is a very powerful thing that you did.
On another question about religious minorities seeing Congress as alternative to BJP, Shri Gandhi said- Because it’s not just religious minorities, it’s everybody because we give space to all ideas in India, all communities, all religions. Our party is… and the design of our party is… our original design.. Mahatma Gandhi designed the party to be based on truth and non-violence, compassion, affection.
So, it’s a completely different philosophical architecture than the BJP. So, it has a different vision of India, it views India as a conversation, it views India as multiple ideas, it’s bit like the melting pot idea in the United States, where everybody comes together and you have a conversation, and then you negotiate. So, everybody is comfortable in it.
On another question about what would Congress do to bring the religious minorities together, Shri Gandhi said- I mean, you just have to look at our record. Our record speaks for itself. We don’t even have to say what we are going to do, just look at what we have done. We are the ones, not we, but the Congress Party is the institution that united India in the first place, they fought against British, defeated the British and built the entire architecture for this conversation. So, it’s in our DNA, we are committed to this. As I said, the framework for this is present in India… it’s not absent, it’s not that it needs to be constructed. It needs to be nurtured and protected, which we know how to do.
On another question about disqualification from Parliament, Shri Gandhi said- I don’t know, I mean, look, as you said, I asked a rhetorical question. I asked the question, why… You described it… I am fighting a court case… but I asked a rhetorical question and I am the first person in India to be given the highest punishment for a defamation case, I am the first person in the Indian history since 1947. Nobody has been given the maximum sentence on defamation and that too on the first offence.
So, that should explain what’s going on to you. And my disqualification happens quite interestingly after I make a speech about Mr. Adani in Parliament, so you can do the math. You know my disqualification is not really, it’s okay, it’s not the most important thing. The most important thing is the thousands and thousands of other voices, civil society, government, bureaucracy, who are being frightened into submission, that’s much more important to me, than my disqualification. My disqualification in many ways is an advantage for me. (The interviewer asked – how so?) Because it opens up completely new spaces for me. It allows me to completely redefine myself, and I think, they have given me a gift, frankly, they don’t think they realise it. But they have.
Politics is not linear, it’s like… it can suddenly go off into another direction… it’s asymmetric. So, I think, they have given me a gift. It’s not apparent right now, but I think they have.
On another question that what keeps you involved in politics despite the risks, Shri Rahul Gandhi said- I defend an idea, I love the people of my country…in particular, the people who are struggling. I have a bias towards them and I completely empathise with their struggle. It disturbs me when I see the pain in India, and I have no choice because that creates an emotional response in me that I can’t fight. So, it is natural.
And also, I have grown up with a narrative about my country… Gandhian narrative of what the country is, what it should look like, what is important. So, that’s what drives me. I am not concerned really about threats of violence, and assassination and stuff… everybody is going to die… and that’s what I learnt from my grandmother and my father. So, you don’t back down because of something like that.
On another question about Congress policy towards India’s relationship with Russia in the context of Ukraine war, Shri Gandhi said- I think, I don’t know if you like my answer, but I think… similar to how the BJP would or did… we would be responding in a similar way to BJP because we have a relationship with the Russians that can’t be denied, it is there. So, I think our policy would broadly be similar.
On another question that from your perspective, has the relationship with Russia changed since the Ukraine war began, Shri Gandhi said- I think, in some ways, it might have changed but there is an old historic relationship with Russia and we buy weapons from them, so there are also those type of reasons for this. But I don’t think that Congress government would be dramatically different than what the BJP is doing right now in terms of Russia.
On another question about SGPC raising objections to comparison of Bharat Jodo Yatra with Guru Nanak Dev ji’s Udasis, Shri Rahul Gandhi said- I said that the tradition of Yatra or a walk is a very deep tradition in India, and I said that many great people have used this instrument of a walk… Mahatma Gandhi has used it, Guru Nanak has used it… as an instrument of conversation and as an instrument of understanding. So, I think, they are saying that I shouldn’t compare the ‘Bharat Jodo Yatra’ to walks that Guru Nanak and Mahatma Gandhi took, but I wasn’t doing that. I clearly said- that look I draw inspiration from these great leaders and what they did, and there is no question of comparing this walk to their walk, but I think they have misunderstood it.
On another question that what is your message to the Indian people… why they should support Congress in the next election, Shri Gandhi said- I said in my Yatra and I will say it in Hindi… ‘Nafrat Ke Bazaar Mein Mohabbat Ki Dukaan Kholo’. Do you speak Hindi? So… ‘Nafrat Ke Bazaar Mein Mohabbat Ki Dukaan Kholo’… in a market of hatred, open a little shop of love and affection.
So, I believe that India needs to be in harmony, and I believe that India needs to be able to express itself to truly succeed. I don’t know of one case, where somebody who is angry or somebody who is full of hatred had an expansive imagination. And India needs an expansive imagination, India needs to dream big. And you can’t dream big if the people who are leading you are angry, are violent, are engrossed with hatred.
So, I think, I feel India has a great opportunity, huge opportunity, which can transform the lives of millions and millions of Indians. But in order to do that, it needs to imagine a new India in a big dynamic manner and I think in order to do that, India needs to be in harmony, India needs to start talking to itself, India needs to respect itself. So, that would be one element of it. Hatred doesn’t work, you know that…your country knows that better than anybody else. Hatred has never worked, it might work for six months, one year and then it collapses on itself. Affection, love always work… they have… I mean that’s what we have been told by the great leaders.